Our first debate is about console emulation versus gaming on original classic hardware.  Victor and Frank engage this topic in pure vigour on the battlefield that is the Game Debate floor.  Let the battle commence!!

Victor [5:13 AM]:

This is an excellent starter topic

Frank [5:13 AM]:

By consoles I mean original consoles like the NES and SNES

Victor [5:13 AM]:

Original hardware

Frank [5:13 AM]:

Emu

Cheaper

Costs nothing

*Q Vic raising eyebrows going “brrruh?”

Victor [5:15 AM]:

Hmm.. Well I believe that Original hardware is superior to Emulation … this is basically the same argument of Vinyl records and music on MP3

Frank [5:15 AM]:

Oh boy we just opened up a whole can lol

Victor [5:15 AM]:

Free gaming yes is a guilty pleasure but where is the substance >?

Where are the “memories?”

Frank [5:16 AM]:

In a day and age where people want a fucking arm and a leg for a NES with fucked up pins on eBay is there room for substance?

Victor [5:16 AM]:

Original hardware brings us back to the days when we sat in from of the TV and played…

Frank [5:17 AM]:

Not everyone ahs access to thrift stores or classic gaming stores… I will say the general public not only does not know these techniques but has no outlets to exercise them

Victor [5:17 AM]:

Unfortunately yes there are the few and the proud out there who consider gaming on original hardware to be of higher quality than emulation

True not all people who love gaming has access to classical gaming store however this does not stop them from vesting eBay for instance

Jason [5:19 AM]:

True, but a credit card does

Victor [5:19 AM]:

Or local sites for trades and or purchase … case in point _www.kijiji.ca or redflag

Jason [5:20 AM]:

I guess I’m going to be the “Flava Flav” or “Sen Dog” of the group

The Hype Man

The Stoker

Victor [5:21 AM]:

IMHO … gaming on original hardware will always beat emulation.

Frank [5:22 AM]:

It might beat it but it is not always available

Jason [5:22 AM]:

But that is strictly opinion based and there is no scientific evidence to support this.

Frank [5:22 AM]:

If someone wants s simple nostalgia fix they can get themselves a USB adapter of their gamepad of choice and pop in an emulator

Jason [5:22 AM]:

Unlike the MP3 / Vinyl Argument you wrote

Victor [5:23 AM]:

Frank you mentioned dealing with fucked up Pins on a NES is not worth the time to appreciate the “substance” gained from playing

Jason [5:23 AM]:

I agree with Frank,

Victor [5:23 AM]:

I have to disagree…

Frank [5:23 AM]:

There are some games that may require a portrait display which is easy because most people have wide screen monitors that you can adjust that i.e. with games like Donkey Kong or arkanoid

Jason [5:23 AM]:

Original hardware is only for nostalgia

Frank [5:24 AM]:

Don’t get me wrong I love original hardware if I can get it, but for instance, I refuse to fucking pay 400 bucks for a friggin’ boxed neo geo

Victor [5:25 AM]:

True that immediate gratification is gained from playing emu’s on a USB adaptor with all games in it. However I remember when fiddling with my NES for it to work was part of the experience.

Victor [5:25 AM]:

It was as part of the game as pressing start

Frank [5:25 AM]:

That may be part of the experience but again, what if that hardware is not available?

For instance

Victor [5:27 AM]:

Yes if the hardware is not available I would have to give in to your argument however…. lets say price was not an issue… wouldn’t you rather prefer playing that NEO-GEO they way it was supposed to be played?

I understand that price may be a barrier for some people but we have to note that this is not the case for ALL gamers

Frank [5:28 AM]:

You want to play a 1978 Atari 2600.. The wooded version not the plastic one… those are hard to fucking find. So are you saying that someone will not have the same experience despite being thrilled to play a game they haven’t played in 30 years on an emu with the same sounds and controls as before that if they were sitting on their shaggy carpet on an old ass TV as they stick a cart into a console and power it on… not working half the time? As well… and this is a big one… Emulators DON’T break down physically and are updated by the community.

However old systems do

Victor [5:32 AM]:

Ok I agree with this point however this brings us back to the Vinyl vs. Mp3 argument. There are a finite amount of vinyl discs out there for a particular group … however there is an infinite amount of copies of the same album / song in digital format.

The Vinyl lover will still prefer to fix his scratched disk over re-downloading a copy of his corrupted mp3 file

Frank [5:33 AM]:

Yes but records don’t need a certain resistor, need a certain pin connector, need a specific kind of controller to play

You can slap that thing on an old turntable or a new Technics 1210 MK-5 and it will play

Victor [5:36 AM]:

Hmm … true but there is an intangible quality gained from having the original hardware. When you say to the general gamer out there hey I have the ROM of that they say cool….. however if you say you have the original hardware with the original Game cart to a console they have not seen or touched in 20 some odd years then they say “awesome”

Right there you have gained some thing “a notoriety “of having this item

Jason [5:37 AM]:

So you want original h/w for fame purposes.

So people will “talk” about you

Victor [5:38 AM]:

I personally know that you have a Super Famicom with Jap games…. to this I say “Awesome”. I will not say the same for having SNES roms

Frank [5:38 AM]:

But you lose that notoriety when it breaks i.e. a control pad… if, let’s say, all your SNES pads break down and the buttons break and in a hypothetic world, was VERY hard to find.. not at thrift stores or noting u are stuck with using shitty third party controllers which you and I both know suck balls

Victor [5:38 AM]:

Not just that J I say that original hardware has intangible qualities

Frank [5:38 AM]:

Also, to gain notoriety by owning the original is like having it just so u can think your better than everyone else

Jason [5:39 AM]:

I guess Vic is right,

It’s like a Car and A bus

They both get you from point a to point b. But having a car is better even though it accomplishes the same thing

Victor [5:40 AM]:

I will agree that emulation is good only to preserve the art which would be otherwise lost in a ever decreasing world of parts of said systems

Jason [5:41 AM]:

But then again a car cost out the ass

Victor [5:41 AM]:

And having the guilty pleasure of having these games in a “portable” format

Frank [5:43 AM]:

But if the classic console breaks down, like a Magnavox odyssey, your fucked for parts and then all u got is a retro console that is broken that u can’t fix cause its 37 fucking years old… then u are stuck with that hollow “It’s gone” feeling unless u buy another off eBay for subsequent outrageous prices

Jason [5:44 AM]:

But at least you’ll have that little piece of history

And can put it up on display

Victor [5:45 AM]:

You have strengthen my argument…. by saying there is a greater sense of loss of said item you say that having this said hardware is more precious. Getting another emulator of said console is as easy as taking a breath on a windy day.

Jason [5:46 AM]:

Vic has obviously not ever taken a breath on a windy day

That shit is tough to take in man’g

Victor [5:46 AM]:

I have and it’s “awesome”

Frank [5:48 AM]:

What fucking good is putting a broken console on display when u can’t play it? That’s depressing

At leas to me

Jason [5:49 AM]:

Intangible qualities that Vic is so desperate for.

Frank [5:49 AM]:

Cause I look at it yeah that looks cool, i wish I could fucking plug it in and play rushing beat but I can’t cause it’s broken

Victor [5:49 AM]:

Yet a smashed SNES hold more value then a downloaded ROM

Jason [5:49 AM]:

He likes hardware because it brings him back to Ye Good ‘ol Thymes

Victor [5:50 AM]:

Good point … the good ol days…

Frank [5:51 AM]:

I will admit that an emulator can only fill the void of having the real thing but when that “real thing” is no longer there u have to replicate the experience

In an emulator

Frank [5:52 AM]:

And these days u can shove a PC into anything. What would stop one from taking a shell from a broken console, shoving a net book CPU and mobo in it then firing up the OS with an emulator and play the games on, what appears to be the original console, what about them apples?

Jason [5:53 AM]:

Shoving a net book CPU and mobo in it then firing up the OS with an emulator and play the games on <- I don’t think that this is a good replacement for what Vic is chasing after – he’s chasing the dragon.

Frank [5:54 AM]:

Yeah and he can’t catch it

Victor [5:54 AM]:

Again you have a point Frank. However the configuration you have mentioned also takes away from the total experience. It takes away from the game as it was intended to be played.

Jason [5:54 AM]:

Point Made

Thanks Vic

Frank [5:54 AM]:

But what if that hardware is no longer available then what?!

You’re fucked

And an emu will continue to fill that joy of playing those games

I know it was not intended to be played that way but when that shit is not around anymore like that Star battle game from 1972 which was one of the first arcade games, then what?

What are u going to do travel down to New Hampshire to play it at the arcade museum?

To have that “experience”?

Victor [5:56 AM]:

It will always come down to that but note that I mentioned earlier. I agree to emulation when it’s in the spirit of preserving the art.

Frank [5:56 AM]:

I will give u the perfect example

When u and I finished turtles in time what did we play it on?

We played it on a THIRD PARTY; MADE IN CHINA replica of the console…. did we have just as much fun as though we played the original? Of course. And to me, remade hardware, according to you, would not have the same substance as laying on an original

Victor [5:58 AM]:

Yes we played on a Duo Clone device … however I felt that the game was not done justice because we had played it the way it was originally intended

Frank [5:58 AM]:

But I must say I had the same experience as though I played it on the original hardware

Victor [5:58 AM]:

Personally I would have felt more satisfied if we had the SNES in front of us

Frank [5:58 AM]:

That is perception and that is up to the user

Now

Given we were in fact playing with original SNES controllers I believe and not the ones that game with it did we?

Victor [5:59 AM]:

lol yes the intangible quality that I mentioned

Yea I brought up original SNES controllers because the controllers that came with the clone device completely steal the famed feel of the classic SNES controller

Jason [6:01 AM]:

Vic is stretching here

Victor [6:01 AM]:

So I believe your perception is a bit skewed… have we played this game with the clone SNES and Cloned SNES controllers you would have mentioned it … rather than enjoy yourself like you did when you were a kid playing this game

Frank [6:03 AM]:

I will be honest I had the same experience

Mainly cause u didn’t suck at the game

lol

And we were playing it like it was 193

1993

My perception is not skewed but rather individual

Because everyone’s experience is different

Jason [6:04 AM]:

Controller design has nothing to do with the way a game “was meant to be played”

Frank [6:04 AM]:

It does to me

Because if it doesn’t physically feel right, it don’t play right and does not give me the right experience I am looking for

Victor [6:05 AM]:

True…. we will put this to the test … we will have 2 sessions of TMNT: Turtles in Time…. first with clone device then with original hardware… and we will then know the answer

Frank [6:05 AM]:

Ok

That sounds like a plan

Jason [6:05 AM]:

Do you really thing that the game designers were thinking, “this level is going to be even greater because of the rounded edges on the controller!”

Frank [6:05 AM]:

Although I will say I will have the same experience

As long as I am using original pads

Which an emulator can use too

Victor [6:06 AM]:

J we have to consider the point “the way the game was intended to be played”

Frank [6:06 AM]:

They did not have to think that because all they had was THAT controller

Not the third party shit we have now

They had dev kits and they had original controllers

Jason [6:06 AM]:

The button functionality is all that would have been considered. The actual design of the controller is 100% marketing

Victor [6:07 AM]:

The developers have developed said game with “Original hardware” the do not take into consideration any 3rd party controller that may or may not come into the market.

Jason [6:07 AM]:

The weight of a controller I would have to say is never considered

As you guys seem to think

Frank [6:07 AM]:

What marketing??? Listen J would u enjoy fucking NHL 09 with a shitty GameStop wired USB controller for the 360?

No, because it wouldn’t work right

Victor [6:07 AM]:

Actually it is…. the controller that comes with the system in the box. That is the controller that is to be used with the game.

Frank [6:08 AM]:

Exactly they did not Vic they only had what they had

And that was part of the gaming experience

I will bring over some shitty 3rd party SNES controllers see how u like ‘em when the buttons and the pad sticks

*buttons and the pad

Because it has the same shape but not the same build quality

And your memories of playing the game back in the good ole days is related to that controller because that’s what it came with

Also

with third party controllers for the systems I could never pull off the moves as smooth in Street fighter than if I used a third party controller that is made recently

There is a quality element there as well

Jason [6:10 AM]:

Marketing

Frank [6:10 AM]:

And if the quality sucks the experience sucks

Not marketing… quality

Jason [6:11 AM]:

So game designers tell the hardware designers what the console and controllers should look like

You’re in essence saying that Game Designers are responsible for the over all look of the hardware

Victor [6:11 AM]:

Hence the original hardware has an intangible quality that emulation and 3rd party / clone hardware does not provide

Frank [6:12 AM]:

As long as u got the controller u got the experience

Jason [6:12 AM]:

As Per Vic and Frank, Game Designers also make the hardware

Frank [6:12 AM]:

Is u starting at the console while u plays the game? No you’re looking at the action that is on the screen

Jason [6:12 AM]:

I think that this game debate thing is going to be fun

Frank [6:12 AM]:

No shit

Victor [6:13 AM]:

No j that is not what is being said … the Game engineers have designed a system this is the development hardware which is sent to the “developer” they have to make their game work with the system that is given to them.

Frank [6:13 AM]:

Exactly

Jason [6:13 AM]:

In the end, the marketers decide on what sells.

Look at Nintendo

Victor [6:13 AM]:

Sometimes this fails…. the original XBOX controller … that had to be redesigned to the type-s

Frank [6:14 AM]:

But it was their first system of course there would be redesigns

Look at the NES

Compared to the famicom it’s a world of a difference

So they redesigned it to be better

Jason [6:14 AM]:

Through market research.

Frank [6:15 AM]:

Then there is the top loader where they made the NES gamepads look like SNES controllers which sucked

Jason [6:15 AM]:

Market research made the design different. Nothing to do with developers

Frank [6:15 AM]:

Back then they had focus groups

Not online polls n shit

Or blogs

U had to get a group of kids to play the game and ask them how they would change it

That’s kind of like QA

Jason [6:15 AM]:

Marketers + Focus Groups = same difference

Victor [6:16 AM]:

Correct and I think Nintendo failed with the NES redesign … in respect to the controllers

Jason [6:16 AM]:

U had to get a group of kids to play the game and ask them how they would change it <- Frank, you made my point without realizing it

Frank [6:16 AM]:

Man this debate is mutating fast

Victor [6:16 AM]:

The TOP loading feature was to correct the design flaw with the 72-pin connection

Jason [6:16 AM]:

Marketing decides the design of the controllers

And the look of the console

Victor [6:17 AM]:

You’re right … j is supposed to be moderating this debate to stay on topic

Jason [6:17 AM]:

And the styles of game play

Frank [6:17 AM]:

It was the right design but also u can use your old NES controllers or even famicom controllers to play it as the plug never changed with the redesign

Jason [6:17 AM]:

This just branched off from what Vic was arguing about

He’s taking the focus from him and putting it on me

Victor [6:18 AM]:

This is true … however I cannot speak to that since I have not personally held a redesigned NES controller

Frank [6:18 AM]:

Me neither

Jason [6:18 AM]:

In the end though. I do agree what you guys are saying

Jason [6:18 AM]:

Controller design is key to gaming experience

Victor [6:18 AM]:

We do but there was no definitive answer…or do we leave this to our readers?

Frank [6:19 AM]:

Debates NEVER have a definite answer

Jason [6:19 AM]:

I just don’t think that the design is something that a game developer has anything to say about

It’s out of his control

Frank [6:19 AM]:

It is out of his/her control

Jason [6:19 AM]:

Because after a console is designed. What then>?

Frank [6:19 AM]:

The console maker designs that and when they redesign it they say tough shit this is what we are using now

Victor [6:19 AM]:

Well there are exceptions

Frank [6:20 AM]:

After it is designed they rake in the money like Nintendo is with the Wii

Victor [6:20 AM]:

For the Gamecube… factor 5 a developer for the N64 had a hand in the development of the hardware of the Gamecube

Jason [6:20 AM]:

One developer – how many are there?

Victor [6:20 AM]:

They also developed some of the code of the firmware…

Well, I have to say that because there are ALWAYS exceptions

Jason [6:21 AM]:

One isn’t enough to support your fact

Victor [6:21 AM]:

It is enough

Jason [6:21 AM]:

All the other developer were left in the dust

It is, but it isn’t

Frank [6:23 AM]:

I’m saving it here